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Author Topic: Not enough OA for resurfacing  (Read 9500 times)

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a sensation

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Not enough OA for resurfacing
« on: August 17, 2015, 12:51:58 PM »
So, about 9-10 months ago I was told I did  on have enough osteoarthritis for resurfacing. I sent my scans and was told for some unknown reason, people with my leve of OA don't fare well.  I have failed scopes because of the OA.   Now i gave my six month later Xrays to Desmet, and he asked about my symptoms, which are similar or a bit worse.  And replied with a nonchalant, "maybe have your right hip resurfaced" without mentioning his impressions from the Xray. Makes me feel a bit uneasy.  I did actually see him person last year.

Anyway, did anyone get operated that wasn't bone on bone on the Xray?  Of so, how are you doing?

chuckm

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Re: Not enough OA for resurfacing
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2015, 02:25:43 PM »
A sensation: The femoral head where the femoral component is attached gets its necessary blood supply (to keep the bone alive and strong) through vessels both inside the bone as well as outside in soft tissue. As the hip develops osteoarthritis, it changes the way it supplies blood to the femoral head. The blood through soft tissue becomes less and the blood supply through the femoral neck inside the bone increases. Bone on bone arthritis is a benchmark that gives enough assurance that the blood supply will have changed enough to be sufficient after resurfacing.

Otherwise you run the risk of avascular necrosis where the bone dies underneath the device.
So while it is possible to have successful resurfacing without bone on bone arthritis, the risk for a bad outcome is elevated.

If you cannot live with the pain to wait for resurfacing you can just go with a total hip replacement. They replace the whole head and neck so blood supply is not an issue. But, of course, you then don't have a resurfaced hip and may have restrictions.

Chuckm
Left BHR 11/30/12
Hospital for Special Surgery
46 years old

a sensation

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Re: Not enough OA for resurfacing
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2015, 03:20:30 PM »
Thank Chuck,  that has been the best explanation I have been told.  Waiting game continues. Only 31, so I don't want to jump to the thr. 

Ljpviper

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Re: Not enough OA for resurfacing
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2015, 06:59:40 PM »
I am in the same boat as you two failed arthroscopic surgeries mild arthritis still have good joint space. I visited Dr.Gross last year and he was hesitant as well. He did not mention what ChuckM stated.

I am now starting to have issues with my knees as well as the chronic hip pain in both hips 24/7. I actually reached out to Dr. Gross last week to see if I qaulify for his outpatient procedure.

That is concering what ChuckM mentioned.
Thanks,
Larry
 
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 02:27:42 PM by Ljpviper »

a sensation

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Re: Not enough OA for resurfacing
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2015, 04:39:57 AM »
LJ,

Let me know how the visit goes and what he says.
Thanks

A. S.

chuckm

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Re: Not enough OA for resurfacing
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2015, 03:05:25 PM »
I wouldn't be concerned at all about the bone on bone issue unless you found a rogue surgeon who felt that resurfacing while you still had joint space would be okay.

The blood flow issue is not fully understood but it does seem surgeons don't want to alarm anyone by talking in detail about it. It's just an unknown. If you reach a bone on bone arthritic state but don't have AVN then you can probably support a resurfacing. Before bone on bone it becomes more unknown.

Chuckm
Left BHR 11/30/12
Hospital for Special Surgery
46 years old

Ljpviper

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Re: Not enough OA for resurfacing
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2015, 04:04:23 PM »
When I met with Dr.Gross and Dr.Ratterman neither mentioned this. I was under the assumption that Dr. Gross prefers the patients to utlize all options before HR.

We are in odd situations as hip arthroscopy did not work and we still have joint space. Hip replacement is not an option for me as i am 44. I will ask Lee at Dr.Gross office what he thinks about the bone on bone and blood flow. Living in chronic pain all day is not an option for me any longer, i have had these hip issues since 09. Two failed surgeries i want to be done with it once and for all

Thanks for bringing it up, its very interesting.

Thanks,
Larry
 

chuckm

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Re: Not enough OA for resurfacing
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2015, 06:22:47 PM »
There are many reasons to wait for advanced arthritis before resurfacing. The blood flow issue is just one. 

As long as there is joint space (meaning you still have a layer of cartilage) it's not a sure thing that replacing that cartilage lining with a metal lining will alleviate the pain. When the space is gone and the bones are touching, it is a sure thing that resurfacing will stop the pain generated by that. 

It's a tough spot to be in. I'm in that spot with my other hip that is now becoming more and more painful.

Chuckm


Left BHR 11/30/12
Hospital for Special Surgery
46 years old

Ljpviper

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Re: Not enough OA for resurfacing
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2015, 06:35:39 PM »
Tough spot indeed. It stinks cause I have pain when I sit, so I am in pain all day at work. My OS that did the arthroscopy says its to risky to try a microfracture on the same spot. Dr ratterman also stated the same.


If the pain is coming from the arthritis in the joint even though it's limited, the hip resurfacing should resolve it, I would think.


I am stuck basically.

chuckm

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Re: Not enough OA for resurfacing
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2015, 07:07:26 PM »
I was 43 when things got really bad. My surgeon said I had to tough it out until 50 to get to a THR.

Luckily, by time I found out about hip resurfacing, my bones were rubbing. But I endured about a year or two in that condition.

I'm pretty sure I would have had to wait if I had gone straight to the resurfacing surgeon.

I watched a good friend of mine wait until the joint space was gone. I think it was about two years before that surgeon finally said that it was time.

It gets so bad that you start thinking that you will take the higher risk just to get it done - if the surgeon would say yes. And so what, if it fails you will have it revised to a THR which is the only option right now.
Unfortunately good surgeons are not willing to take those same risks.

Chuckm

Left BHR 11/30/12
Hospital for Special Surgery
46 years old

a sensation

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Re: Not enough OA for resurfacing
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2015, 03:55:31 AM »
Part of the joint is exposed 2 cm x 2 cm they saw and did microfracturing during the scope.  That is the part that is rubbing.  On the Xray, it appears to have space because other parts of the femoral head are grade 3 or grade 4 and likewise with the acetabular.  Too bad the stem cells aren't there yet to fill in that gap.

karlos.bell

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Re: Not enough OA for resurfacing
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2015, 04:08:48 AM »
 ;) Hi Sensation ...... Yep Dr DeSmet will not say to much why would you at 12,000 plus hips and I don't know how many resurfaced. Why would a world class surgeon say to much ? Yep been there and done all that FAI stuff scopes ETC..... Found the issues never stop... Find out from Desmet if you have Deep hip sockets or normal. Was 8 years in the making 6 on crutches and still no good. Yep look do-able on paper or film but not do=able was my body saying. Now the longer you muck around the harder it is to train the muscles back into what should happen the longer the rehab. Try 1 at a time I did 2 and it is hard man. Do not do too much exercise before probably better massages... He told me I was hard to do due my muscle tone was so strong. Well you would be after 6 years of walking hobbling like I was and told all the rehab stuff by the FAI surgeon which was never going to work. Hell the FAI bloke even said we will get about 10 -15 years out of those hips. De Smet said I may get the rest of my life on prosthetic s.   So I opted to give my body a change. I am going through some rough time at the moment with the tissue rebuild but its a process and once you get your head around it and do it, get a result it encourages you to keep going. Be honest if De Smet says thats the issue why would a world class surgeon risk their reputation?
If I had my time again I would ask him earlier on and get it down asap as the suffering you go through with crook hips is long, long process.
More find out if your hips are congenital issue, injury, or poor wear and tear.
He knows about all this as he has seen it before so maybe he is just going to get to the point. No body should be stuck in this position. if they can get a bit of coin. It is cruel and painful as it may never be your fault. The cost is very reasonable. I would look at it "seriously" email me if you wish. Look up Pats stories.  8)
2019-2020 THR Left & Right COC Revision Zim Continuum cup with Biolox Delta Cer Liner, Biolox Delta Cer Head 40mm 12/14 Taper, CPT Stem Cem.
2019-2020 removal of Hip Resurfacing due to Metal Toxicity Cobalt - Chromium.
2011-2013 FAI hip surgery failure
2007-Injury wakeboarding with FAI Hyperflexion

a sensation

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Re: Not enough OA for resurfacing
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2015, 03:31:06 PM »
Thanks for chiming in Karlos.  The thing that has me apprehensive at the moment,  is how he disregarded what he told me in person less than a year ago. So, I am concerned about the joint space issue.   I wrote back, see what he says.  He mentioned some mild dysplasia on less problematic side.  No mention of deep sockets.

So, we're you operated by him?  How far out are you?  Good luck with the recovery

karlos.bell

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Re: Not enough OA for resurfacing
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2015, 11:01:00 PM »
 :) Hey sensation. Yep only about 4 months out. One of the things this web site  says the longer the problem the longer the rehab. Not sure on your stuff but I had FAI pincer quite bad. So I had gaps in my sockets but quite a bit of cartilage. The cartilage was never going to get worse so the joint and surrounding tissue gets a hammering with inflammation from the joint.

Never ending story. If you can get around it do it but me I would use my legs and be in chronic pain not so much in the joint but from the joint. So if you don't have that and really can walk on it sweet. I don't think any condition what ever it is in the joint is the same. Recovery is slow due I had this well over 7 - 8 years of fighting myself it would get better. It never did. But now I can walk on them no hobble. But still a long way to go for the surgical inflammation to recede. Good keep  luck what ever you find out. I see some amazing stories on here at times .. back doing dancing after 8 weeks.... biking 40km after 12 weeks. Not me but I do not hobble. Those must be exception people. Good luck cheers K :)
2019-2020 THR Left & Right COC Revision Zim Continuum cup with Biolox Delta Cer Liner, Biolox Delta Cer Head 40mm 12/14 Taper, CPT Stem Cem.
2019-2020 removal of Hip Resurfacing due to Metal Toxicity Cobalt - Chromium.
2011-2013 FAI hip surgery failure
2007-Injury wakeboarding with FAI Hyperflexion

Ljpviper

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Re: Not enough OA for resurfacing
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2015, 09:30:33 PM »
Hey karlos, how long did the fai surgery last you? Did you get any relief? Something that is noted on my recent MRIs is bone re growth from earlier MRIs.


So the surgeon shapes the bone and then it can grow back. This is something not mentioned by many scope surgeons. I know no surgery is guranteed but some of these scopes are just a waste of people's time, seems there should be a better screening of patients.


Larry

karlos.bell

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Re: Not enough OA for resurfacing
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2015, 07:26:36 AM »
Hey LJpviper. Ok I am no surgeon.
But My FAI surgery failed from the day I had surgery on them. For this. I should have left the FAI alone. Ok here is why.
I have just been to Sydney to see a specialist there and he forwarded me onto a rehab bloke in NZ that used to work with FAI people in Victoria - Tasmania. Hip rehabilitation is his specialty. He was involved with outcomes and research into the surgeries of FAI Bruckner and Kahn sports peoples who write the sports bibles.
Ok basically if you have pincer dominant they do not do this operation any more in Australia as it destabilizes the hip joint even more (this is what I had).
They only remove the cam and fix up the labral tears or separation of the tears now (Australia).
Bone  grow back I am not so sure? but you can have a bone on bone some people do and get away with it. If your FAI surgery works cool, wait. But I had too much so called cartilage but all in the wrong areas. My joints were flogged from being impinged yep and I suffered for about 8 years until I plucked the courage to have them resurfaced.
No relief. No did not last, bad deep sockets I had pincer type.
Good luck keep doing your research.
Cheers K




2019-2020 THR Left & Right COC Revision Zim Continuum cup with Biolox Delta Cer Liner, Biolox Delta Cer Head 40mm 12/14 Taper, CPT Stem Cem.
2019-2020 removal of Hip Resurfacing due to Metal Toxicity Cobalt - Chromium.
2011-2013 FAI hip surgery failure
2007-Injury wakeboarding with FAI Hyperflexion

Slinkycarrot

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Re: Not enough OA for resurfacing
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2015, 04:33:06 PM »
Hi there, I have the same issue; Ive had 6 scopes - 3 on each side which have all failed due to bad surgeons and then scar tissue formation.  I also have hip dysplasia and an old piriformis release surgery which adds to my instability.  I'm only 36 but had the last 3 years in a lot of pain an not able to do simple things like walk.

Anyway, my scans show good joint space on one side and then mild arthritis on the other.   Dr De Smet said he would do one side and Im waiting to hear back from Dr Gross. 

I have a local surgeon in South Africa who has performed about 1000 of them, he himself has had his hip resurfaced, he seems to think it is ok to resurface both; i think he his much more sympathetic to my situation as he has been through it.

I think its worth the risk of resurface, living in pain really sucks and not to mention the de-conditioning of the body which puts everything else out of whack.   

Im just trying to decide whether i push for it with the aforementioned surgeons or go with the local guy which would be much easier.  Another complication I have is I want to get pregnant asap but couldn't imagine going through it with my current hip function and not being able to have cortisone to keep the pain at bay.










John C

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Re: Not enough OA for resurfacing
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2015, 12:21:52 AM »
Hi westro.
Please scroll down to one of the previous posts in this thread by chuckm. He gives a very good explanation of some of the risks of doing a resurfacing when there is not sufficient arthritis present for the body to start re-routing the blood supply. It might be a topic worth discussing with any surgeons that you talk to.
Also, you mentioned wanting to get pregnant. Some people have concerns about a pregnancy with metal on metal joints like resurfacing, because many believe that the metal wear debris might cross to the baby. It is possible that some doctors might advise you to have your baby before getting a resurfacing. Something else you might ask the surgeons about.
John/ Left uncemented Biomet/ Dr Gross/ 6-16-08
Right uncemented Biomet/Dr Gross/ 4/25/18

Slinkycarrot

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Re: Not enough OA for resurfacing
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2015, 03:13:32 PM »
hi John C


Thanks for the pointers,  the surgeon seems to think the risk is relatively small but i am consulting with a few doctors so will have different opinions. Dr Bose was against it for the same reason.


Re pregnancy, Dr De Smet has good data comparing metal ion wear rates of the  conserve plus vs the BHR, so if I opt pre-children will need to use a surgeon who does not use the BHR as it has higher levels for the first 2 years after placement. I cant really bare to think of 4 more years of my current status.


thanks!




karlos.bell

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Re: Not enough OA for resurfacing
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2015, 09:05:59 PM »
 :) Hey Westro.
Sounds like you been through a lot or heaps. 6 scopes now that is starting to ring alarm bells already. Common logic for me would be after 2 scopes and see what it is like then start looking at what the real issue is. Dysplasia is the opposite of what I had, so one way it is not normal  . I met a woman on my way home from Belgium in the plane same thing she could almost dislocate her hip from a standing position she was only young.

Maybe  give one a shot or the bilateral. But be aware it is a grueling operation Bilateral but if you think you can handle it do it. I meet a polish woman when in Belgium who had 1 BHR 11 years ago, she plays tennis rides a bike and was most active and normal. The prosthesis was like the  day it was inserted. So some good things happen. Unfortunate you have dysplasia but good to know someone in the world can help. Good luck sounds like you are on the right track. Cheers K

2019-2020 THR Left & Right COC Revision Zim Continuum cup with Biolox Delta Cer Liner, Biolox Delta Cer Head 40mm 12/14 Taper, CPT Stem Cem.
2019-2020 removal of Hip Resurfacing due to Metal Toxicity Cobalt - Chromium.
2011-2013 FAI hip surgery failure
2007-Injury wakeboarding with FAI Hyperflexion

 

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