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Author Topic: Chiropractic  (Read 3335 times)

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jimbone

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Chiropractic
« on: March 22, 2021, 08:06:32 PM »
Wondering if any others have used/benefitted from any chiropractic work after surgery.  I'm bilateral seeing my 3rd anniversary coming up this summer and my recovery for the past years has been nothing short of life changing.  An interesting [to me] change has been the re-alignment of my hips as it has effected a pretty much life long "bow leggedness" which probably resulted from some minor dysplasia of the hip sockets.  I noticed a month ago when I was washing some mud off the work boots that the habitual deterioration of the outside of the heels was no longer and had been replaced by a small and even wearing of the very back edge of the heel.  Mentioned it my brother who does structural alignment massage work and he agreed it was a good sign.  I also notice that my feet and knees align straight when walking and on the elliptical.

With the health clubs mostly crippled for the last year my usual work out is also altered and walking/hiking/home elliptical/stretching/calisthenics have been the alternative but the workouts just aren't of the same intensity.  In the past few weeks I've noticed some tightness/pressure in the sacrum area and an occasional twinge/pressure in the hips.  I've had back issues for decades from some disc damage/degeneration but all of those symptoms disappeared since surgery and the very minor ones I've been experiencing recently go away with some exercise and the occasional advil.  At 66 this  June I'd call it a fair deal, and I haven't had any deep tissue body work for at least 2 years so I'm not terribly concerned but do feel an overall skeletal tension I'm looking forward to move past.  Deep tissue will be my 1st option but curious if anyone else has been "adjusted" by a chiropractor after surgery.  What was your experience?  Limitations you communicated to the bone cracker? Results? Reasons for treatment? Your thoughts are appreciated.

TotalWus

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Re: Chiropractic
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2021, 06:44:28 AM »
It's all quackery and not at all wihout considerable danger: https://quackwatch.org/chiropractic/

Especially, if you have pre-existing back issues, don't let a chiropractor anywhere near your back. Talk to your (real) doctor or see an osteopath. Save the money you'd waste on your first chiro visit and buy a nice $150 inversion table. Then, save what you'd waste on (less than) a year of chiro nonsense and get yourself a nice used/reconditioned gym-quality elliptical machine.

petemeads

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Re: Chiropractic
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2021, 08:05:41 AM »
I went to a physiotherapist with lower back problems after my second (THR) hip - I knew there was a leg-length difference of a few millimetres - and the physio referred me to a Chiropractor they used regularly.
He took history, a couple of x-rays, diagnosed a hypermobile vertebral joint and misplaced fascia joints which he manipulated (with a crack). He also pummelled my glutes with a vibrating machine. I walked away with my head held high and ran 5k faster the next day than previously. Two more visits, each time getting faster. Good value, and he confirmed there was no sacroiliac problem which the physio had been worried about. He had no idea about the thigh pain I was getting occasionally but offered to put me in touch with a private MRI facility.  Not needed to take him up on that. A very pleasant and interested man, keen to hear about my aspirations and achievements, not had to see him for a couple of years now - which is almost a shame...
They are not all quacks, although chiropractic does seem a bit weird I seem to have been well served. In another forum, a commenter said " I thought it was quackery, but I stand corrected! "
Age 70, LBHR 48mm head 18th Nov 2014 and RTHR 36mm head Zimmer ceramic/ceramic 2nd May 2017 by Mr Christopher Kershaw, Spire hospital, Leicester UK.

jimbone

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Re: Chiropractic
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2021, 03:42:12 PM »
Wuss and Pete-

Thanks for the replies.  I can unequivocally agree with both of you-insert appropriate emoji here- as  having a long history with a wide variety of physical therapies I have experienced both ends of the spectrum your own experiences express.  There have been horror stories of quackery, over billing insurance, dubious treatments, unreconciled symptoms and clear money bleeding schemes, nearing malpractice as well as near miraculous, immediate and positive results at the hands of a very few practitioners.

I've never bought into the medical "philosophy" of chiropractic- that all disease results from misalignment of the vertebrae- but at the same time a misplaced, unaligned vertebrae will certainly cause issues.  When I am properly stretched out and do my own spinal twisting/stretching, a minor "pop" of some joint either in my spine or even sacroiliac joint most often puts me right.  The times the muscles and soft tissues have been too tense trying to overcompensate and hold the joint from further misalignment it has on occasion been helpful to have the extra leverage a chiropractic "manipulation".  My general perception however is that most are not that skilled or innately  talented to be beneficial and treat their patients like ATMs.

My general rule of thumb has been if there is no relief by the 3rd session they don't have the "right stuff" and it's time to move on.  I tried as a last resort the final year before surgery with a chiropractor.  One of his procedures was to yank vigorously on both my legs like he was trying to pull them out of their sockets- so obviously some concerns there, not to mention it was completely ineffective.  That same year I also paid for about 6 PT treatments but ended that when the PT- running his own clinic- needed to ask me which hip it was giving me troubles at the last session.  Didn't find his lack of attention to detail encouraging.  His LMT however was very good and I continued treatment with her for a while afterward.

Interesting about the inversion table- I gave mine away after surgery.  It hadn't been any help before the hips got done and didn't seem like a good idea after surgery.  Wuss- do you use an inversion table after surgery?  No issues?  Might look into it if the current thing sticks around but I expect this bit of sacral tension is more a result of a lack of intense enough workouts so I plan to just bite the bullet and put up with LA Fitness's masking requirements so I can get back on the weights and start swimming again.  The current isn't much more than a low level annoyance especially since the more chronic back issues pre-surgery have been a distant memory for almost 3 years.

Thanks for your input.

TotalWus

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Re: Chiropractic
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2021, 07:37:38 PM »
They are not all quacks, although chiropractic does seem a bit weird I seem to have been well served. In another forum, a commenter said " I thought it was quackery, but I stand corrected! "
It's true that they're not all quacks. The problem is that the vast majority definitely are and their patients have no idea how to differentiate the quacks from the relatively few who limit their practice to diagnostic and treatment methods that are consistent with scientific medicine and appropriately limited to conditions treatable through hands-on manipulation. For every good chiropractor who understands what parts of chiropractic theory are total BS and who knows when to refer to (real) doctors, there are 100 quacks who are (at best) taking money for nonsense and (at worst) dangers to their patients, who think they can treat all sorts of unrelated medical issues, maintain an antagonistic position about (actual) medical science, and preach all of the nonsense that remains unproven, unchanged, and unquestioned since it was originally postulated by a totally uneducated and untrained grocer in 1895. Their foundational belief about "subluxations" still can't be demonstrated objectively to exist by any (real) diagnostic method and they can't even define what it is, let alone how it supposedly relates to all of the medical problems that chiropractic claims to be able to treat. Would you trust a physician whose training was limited to what (real) doctors knew about medicine in 1895 and who performed blood letting?

The problem with the anecdote that you related about the commenter on the other forum is, precisely, that his mind about chiropractic, in general, was changed by a single positive anecdote. Whatever he learned from you can, at most, apply to the one non-quack who treated you. Just check out the website that I linked in the previous post for some broader perspective about the entire profession.

Here's a typical example of the risks involved, from a much older thread:
I will offer a couple of very non-expert thoughts. In my own experience, I had hip and buttock pain 35 years ago that some diagnosed as hip issues and some as back issues. I worked with deep tissue massage for the hip and Chiropractors for the back for 6 months until I could barely walk or move, and was in constant severe pain. I finally went to a spine surgeon who immediately did an MRI which clearly showed a disc rupture pressing on a nerve. While I still go to Chiropractors for minor back tweaks, in that case it seems clear that the Chiropractic adjustments made the disc rupture problem worse, and the numerous x-rays that were taken were not useful for showing nerve compression. Within a couple of months after back surgery the problem resolved and I was back to full time skiing.
Don't ever use chiropractors to diagnose anything. Go to an orthopedist or an osteopath or a spine surgeon first and if you really want to try chiropractic modalities for treatment, get a referral to one trusted by a real physician and never the other way around.

Interesting about the inversion table- I gave mine away after surgery.  It hadn't been any help before the hips got done and didn't seem like a good idea after surgery.  Wuss- do you use an inversion table after surgery?  No issues?
Not since surgery, until I get the OK from my surgeon. I asked him about it before surgery, because if I couldn't use it for a while, I wanted to fold it away to use that space for a massage table for my hip exercises and to lie on a decline right after surgery to reduce swelling. That worked great, BTW: I just adjusted the legs of one end much lower than the other and lay on it with my feet higher than my head instead of spending all of my time on a recliner or with my legs on pillows. It allowed more of a decline and without that reclined hip and knee flexion that shortens your hamstrings and hip flexors that contributes to muscle tightness. Now that the swelling is gone, I've adjusted it level and after I'm done with my hip exercises, I'm putting it on the terrace to replace the older one I've had out there for years and setting up the inversion table again.

Inversion is the safest possible way to crack your own back; it's much safer than twisting, especially if you've ever had any disc issues. I've found that it's also fantastic for abdominal training without any strain on the lower back whatsoever and that's the main reason that I wish I had the indoor space for both the massage table and the inversion table at the same time: I can't wait to go back to doing abs upside down again.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 07:52:52 PM by TotalWus »

jimbone

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Re: Chiropractic
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2021, 07:51:28 PM »
TW-

Agreed with your opinion of the majority of the profession.  I am by nature a skeptic and know when someone is blowing smoke.  As well I've been through the drill so many times I can see/hear them coming and stick to my rule of thumb- 3 treatments for results or done.  Don't think my current tension which is pretty much located to the right side erectors that got strained a bit at work will need chiropractic treatment and was mostly curious about others post surgical experience.  My go to for any ongoing soft tissue/muscle discomfort will always be deep tissue work if I can't get the knots out myself.

petemeads

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Re: Chiropractic
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2021, 07:17:03 AM »
Wus - I didn't make it clear enough. The commenter who "stands corrected" had his back problem sorted out by a Chiropractor despite his misgivings about the profession. He was adding another positive anecdote, not taking my word for it...
Most comments on that forum were like yours, very negative, and I get that. Some of us get lucky and in my case the recommendation came from a proper physiotherapist and had the backing of another acquaintance of mine with spinal problems. Maybe the risk of poor treatment is greater in the US?
Age 70, LBHR 48mm head 18th Nov 2014 and RTHR 36mm head Zimmer ceramic/ceramic 2nd May 2017 by Mr Christopher Kershaw, Spire hospital, Leicester UK.

imgetinold

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Re: Chiropractic
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2021, 03:37:09 PM »
TW.....you beat me to it with that link.  I'm 100% with you on Chiropractic.  I've had one use something akin to a Shakeweight, where they put the end against my back/side, squeeze a trigger or something that created a "thunk".  Dumbest thing ever.  I suppose that for some people the placebo effect is enough.

True story:  I had an employee who had chronic back pain and had been going to her Chiropractor for years.  Finally went to an actual doctor.........bone cancer.  She was dead a month later.


Also in agreement about Osteopaths.  I always seek out an Osteopath for a primary care physician because more than half the time I go to the doctor is because I hurt myself (usually doing something stupid, like mountain biking in the rain).
Andy
- Right Biomet uncemented HR with Dr. Gross on 1/11/2012
- Left Biomet uncemented HR with Dr. Gross on 10/28/2020

BOILER UP!

TotalWus

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Re: Chiropractic
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2021, 10:39:38 PM »
Maybe the risk of poor treatment is greater in the US?
I don't know anything about chiropractic in the UK, but in this country, it's a ridiculous situation, especially since chiropractors are now permitted to be primary care physicians, which is outrageous, because they're not physicians, in the first place.

Their two largest US associations, the ACA and ICA, can't even agree what the fundamentals of chiropractic are, which is why they haven't merged. Many if not most chiropractors maintain an antagonistic posture toward "traditional" medicine, mainly, because they're all just frustrated doctors who couldn't get into or make it through a real medical school. Relatively few of them restrict their practices to treating conditions that are actually treatable through physical manipulation or restrict their modalities to those with any kind of proven value. Many use completely fabricated devices and methods and their practices focus more on marketing never-ending treatments and on selling supplements than on legitimate continuing education or training in medically-useful approaches, simply because there's just not enough money in limiting their practices to legitimate and appropriate treatments. The people who think they've been helped by chiropractors would have received just as much help from a good massage therapist.

 

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